Original IDA Classic Dragon Page

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IDA
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Original IDA Classic Dragon Page

Post by IDA » Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:49 pm

Last edited by IDA on Thu Aug 31, 2006 10:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mickey Lake
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Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

As part of any development plan that the class......

Post by Mickey Lake » Wed Aug 02, 2006 4:35 pm

comes up with I would like to see the inclusion of a plan to encourage the classic Dragons. How does the membership feel about a separate (but equal) class during championships? What would your definition of a classic Dragon be? Would you include the early fiberglass version of the Dragon? Any ideas out there on how to get our older boats out there and racing again?

I would love to see our older North American boats come out and play. By including a 'classic' division in our regattas it just might give an owner or two the initiative to come out and race that boat that has been used as a day sailor or handicap racer for the last few years. Hopefully someone else will have an opinion on this that we can discuss. Anyone?

Mickey Lake USA149

Dragonlady
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Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:24 am
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Classic Dragons returning

Post by Dragonlady » Sat Aug 05, 2006 6:33 am

Hi, Im trying to find a official Dragon measurer as I was told I need one before I start the restoration on one of my Dragons.
My name is Andrea, live near Seattle Wa. I own 2 classic Dragons.
US 35 , built in Finland in 1952, now a shot boat I sail to promote classics at shows. And US244 the very last Dragon to ever race in the Olympics and won a Bronze in Munich in 72. Her crew member Don was also the oldest Olympian to ever do so. She is the one I am started a MAJOR restoration on. She has been on the hard and badly neglected for 17 years. She is but a ghost of a champion now. The ghost of the last Dragon to race in the Olympics. So I have years of hard work to do, lots of money to earn to do it. I must find a measurer first.
I think a classic section is the way to go. But then again.. of my 5 sailboats, 4 which are wood... 2 of them are Dragons.
I want to race this one again when she is done.
Andrea McDonald and my 2 Dragon babys SMAUG US35 and
CAPRICE US244

Mickey Lake
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:18 am
Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

The forum strikes again!

Post by Mickey Lake » Sat Aug 05, 2006 2:08 pm

Andrea, great to hear from you and to hear about your project. I sent you a pm to discuss the issue of the measurer.

Let me know if there is anything I can do to help you.

Mickey Lake USA149
A disciple of the Norse God of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker.

trw999
Posts: 56
Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Location: England

Classic Dragon Racing

Post by trw999 » Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:51 pm

I came into the class crewing a racing classic at Cowes. At that time I felt more comfortable with a wooden boat. I have since moved on to race moderns. I suppose I became more competitive. I appreciated the decreased loads that go with fine tune systems, winchless genoa sheeting, cascade sail tuning. I certainly felt better about not always racing near the back of the fleet most of the time!

I would therefore support any effort to have a classic Dragon championship circuit. It would revitalise not only a good many semi-retired Dragons, but also not a few Dragon sailors themselves! Additionally, it should provide a cheaper way into the class for both younger and enthusiastic sailors.

However, the rules will need to define a Classic more closely. I am aware of two Pedersen & Theusen boats from the 1957-1961 era (when they were built with a marginally longer waterline and thence grandfathered). These boats have been rebuilt, at great expense, to include all current systems. They are very competitive with the moderns, look gorgeous and it is great to see them racing. But are they still Classics?

How do you define a true classic? To my mind, they certainly have to be wood, so therefore manufactured before 1972. The Flying Fifteen classics are defined by all boats with a sail number less than a defined cut-off number. In addition, one can look at things such as only having wooden spars, having to retain the original cuddy shape, use winches for the genoa, defining acceptable runner locations and styles, limiting sail materials and styles.

Tim

Dragonlady
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Classics

Post by Dragonlady » Wed Aug 09, 2006 6:58 pm

Hi Tim,
Well, I know classics. That is my life, I own 5 of them. 2 Dragons. I spend my entire life reading, learning, sailing and rebuilding them.
Aluminum spars are allowed on Classics for sure, Its in the Dragon rules.
There are already a huge set of rules for them.. I have all the offsets from London. Im rebuilding the last Dragon to race and win in the Olympics right now. She is certainly a classic and has aluminum spars. My other Dragon, US35 has spruce spars. We will have to follow the parameters set for these boats when they raced. Boats and sails will have to be measured. IM taking off for a week here on one of my boats, a 15 foot wood gaff rigger, going singe handed north. Shoud be interesting.
Be back in a week to talk. Nice to meet you.
Andrea McDonald and the Dragons.

Mickey Lake
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:18 am
Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

Great to meet you, Tim.

Post by Mickey Lake » Wed Aug 09, 2006 7:21 pm

What is a classic? That is a darn good question. And would we want to extend it even further to create an 'Evolution' class as they have in the 5.5's so that the transitionary boats (the first fiberglass boats) would also be encouraged to come out?

In the 8mR class they mainly separate the boats by the keel and rudder design. That is not an issue with us, but in the 8's they originally had a big rush to rebuild their older boats and rig them with modern rigs and sails. Now the momentum has swung the other way, with owners being encouraged to race with wooden rigs and more 'traditional' sailcloths.

At the very least it is exciting to be able to talk about this stuff. I think that it is important for the class to encourage these types of boats back into the water for just the reasons mentioned: you open things up to a whole new group of people. And not just the people looking for a less expensive way to race Dragons. All over Europe and North America (and Australia, as well) there has been a resurgence of interest in wooden and classic boat racing. We need to get involved in this.

I am sure that we will talk about this quite a bit in the coming months.

Mickey Lake USA149
Last edited by Mickey Lake on Thu Aug 10, 2006 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
A disciple of the Norse God of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker.

Takk2

Post by Takk2 » Thu Aug 10, 2006 1:18 am

I have just recieved what amounts to a hull, mast and a box of hardware that I would love to race when it is finished It would be nice if we could set some guide lines to restore by I am about one hour west of Toronto
keep me informed

Takk2
should also say that I have drawings from 1961-62 including measuring templates for hull and keel

classic but fast
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Joined: Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:49 am

Post by classic but fast » Wed Aug 16, 2006 12:28 pm

In response to Tim's message about what defines a classic dragon. I race on a classic dragon. I've raced on one since about 1999. We did the Edinburgh Cup with winches, an old mast and no bow chute - we were pretty much back of the fleet all week - totally knackered and it was one of the least enjoyable weeks sailing I've ever done.

After that event the boat got a new mast - we put in a winchless system - and we eventually got a bow chute. Now we are not exactly battling at the front of the fleet, but we have our moments in certain conditions and the boat is far more enjoyable to sail.

At the Jubilee event in St tropez we raced in the classic fleet and managed to win the class. It was a fantastic experience and a victory we really had to earn. Our results were 3rd, 1st and 11th (and we also got a 1st in the extra race - but it didn't count). The boat was competitive relative to similar classics but I think it was us (the team) who made the difference. All the battling in fleets of 100 meant that we were sharper than some of the other classic crews out there. So my advice to the classic owners is get out there and have a go - you can only improve.

I think the classic fleet is a great idea and from the racing we had at St tropez I'm sure many would agree. But making the boat easier to sail doesn't stop it being a classic. I think when you start ripping boats apart and putting Pettigrows lids on them or epoxing the hull and putting fibreglass rudders on then you're going to far. But I know that on the boat I sail we would never go down that road.

We're off to the gold cup in a couple of weeks to race against 110 (mostly fibreglass) boats - and do you know what - I can't wait - even though I know we don't have the pace to finish anywhere near the top half. But maybe in 1 race?????

Cheers
Ross

Mickey Lake
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Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

I must say that......

Post by Mickey Lake » Wed Aug 16, 2006 11:51 pm

it is very exciting to see this kind of interest on the forum for classic Dragon racing, and especially to hear from you guys who are already doing this at a high level.

Thanks for posting. It will help bring this aspect of sailing to the attention of the class leadership and help to create a forum for establishing guidelines for classic Dragons as well as show that there is a need to promote this part of Dragon sailing as much as is possible.

Mickey Lake USA149
A disciple of the Norse God of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker.

ROBERT ALPE
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Classic Dragons needs for individual support at Regattas

Post by ROBERT ALPE » Thu Aug 17, 2006 12:15 am

Mickey,

Could not agree more! There is a pressing need to ‘cater’ for the Classic Dragon at Regattas. A New Classic Dragon Committee concept is being discussed by IDA Officers. If implimented, part of it's charter would be to propose and introduce specific racing programs. As for the definition of a classic dragon [wood only, age etc], I will leave for others to determine.

Regards

Robert Alpe :lol:

Hamish
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:23 am
Location: Toronto

World Champion Boat from 1959

Post by Hamish » Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:29 am

Takk2,

Are you able to identify the original name of the boat? I am looking for "Tip" one raced by Walter Windeyer in the 1959 world's.

Any chance your bucket of lumber is that boat?

Anyone else have any information they are able to share?

Thanks for your assistance.

Hamish

Takk2
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:20 pm

Post by Takk2 » Thu Sep 07, 2006 1:13 am

Hi Hamish

At this time I have little of the boats history but should have all this info in the next couple of weeks
I know some people between here and London I could talk to, do you have any trail, who owned it in 59 or after that ??

Takk2

Ian Orr
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Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 3:53 pm
Location: Toronto

Tip

Post by Ian Orr » Thu Sep 07, 2006 4:09 pm

She's owned by Robin Clarke and lives at the RCYC, Toronto. Won the Gold Cup in 59. Still a fast boat.
Ian Orr

Hamish
Posts: 2
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2006 3:23 am
Location: Toronto

Tip

Post by Hamish » Fri Sep 08, 2006 1:49 am

Ian,

Thanks for the extraordinarily quick turn-around.

Tip was my grandfather's boat (Walter Windeyer) - I am chasing down some of my family history.

Thanks very much for the information.

Cheers,

Hamish

Michael Reinert
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:40 pm

Definition of a classic dragon and 80th anniversary

Post by Michael Reinert » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:12 pm

How to define a classic dragon?

As we all know, this question is hard to decide. There are lots of proposals. In St.Tropez they solved the problem just with the building date ( built before 1972 ).

In Germany this definition makes some problems , because there are some (very few) plywood dragons , similar to coldmouldered , in bavaria built before 1972 , which was already alowed at that time. And , which is more important, there are to my opinion some real classics built in plank on frame technique , which are younger than 1972, most of them built at the Wirz shipyard in switzerland ( switzerland is always very conservative concerning questions of quality )

We are sailing our classic , built by Abeking & Rasmussen (A&R) in 1964 at the lake of Constance. I was involved in organising some lokal regattas at this lake. The active fleet is very mixed , a lot of classics ( also younger than 1972 ) up to very competitive brandnew boats . Because of this mixture we decided to organise the regattas with two rankings for the same race:
One ranking over all , moderns and classics together . In fact the winner is almost everytime a modern dragon ( but I am sure this doesn’t depend only on the material ) and parallel to that a ranking only for the classic participants .

And here we are back to the question of the beginning . Because of this difficult topic we choosed a very simple and practical definition :
A classic dragon must be built of wood in the traditional way , that means planks on frame .
It is every owners own chioce to modernise the equipment, like alu mast etc. Up to now nobody has exaggeratet the modernisation or overstressed this liberal definition . As Ross said , and I couldn’t agree more , most of the classics would never go down that road . We are quite happy with that and the number of the classic partcipants at this lokal regattas is increasing every year .

I agree , Ross , it depends on the sailors and not only on the boat , to be good . Therefore you won the classics in St.Tropez and we were almost last , but anyway , we had the same fun .

Besides that , I am sure , that most of the St.Tropez veterans are still under the impression of this outstanding event . Just to keep this spirit alive , some german classic enthousiasts have the crazy dream to celebrate the 80th anniversary in 2009 only with classic dragons once again at avery special place , not at the usual places like Cannes or Kiel or Duarnenez . Our choice up to now is a very small but incredible famous place : St.Moritz with the Silvaplana lake in Switzerland.

I just want to ask the forum for reaction , is there an interest in the international classic dragon world to follow this idea ? It is very sad that Richard Green is not with us any more , I am sure he would be enthousiastic about an 80th anniversary.

Michael Reinert

Mickey Lake
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Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

Michael, I believe that such a championship.......

Post by Mickey Lake » Fri Sep 08, 2006 11:52 pm

is just the sort of thing that we are talking about to increase interest and keep our older boats alive.

So, at your regatta any boat, wood or glassfibre, was considered a classic based strictly on age? See, I like that because it does not exclude the first generation of 'glass boat, of which we have several here in North America. My own boat is a 1963 Borresen, a classic by most definitions, except for the fact that she is covered with a layer of glass. This will not please the purists among us, but in my case it was necessary to glass her to allow me to sail the boat. A complete rebuild was not within reason financially and this was a solid alternative.

I am afraid that trying to decide what is a classic and what is not a classic will not be an easy matter, but it does need to be done and as many owners of our older boats as we can convince to come out we need to try and get out there. This is a whole segment of the Dragon sailing community, and judging by the volume of traffic on this subject here on the forum it is one that there is a great deal of interest in. Robert has told us that this is being addressed. I am excited to see what the future brings for the classic Dragons. Looks like it's going to be fun.

Mickey Lake USA149
A disciple of the Norse God of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker.

Takk2
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Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 4:20 pm

Post by Takk2 » Sat Sep 09, 2006 8:03 pm

Mickey reread Michael's post 3rd paragraph "A classic dragon must be built of wood in the traditional way , that means planks on frame " but I tend to agree with you set a year as the mark and let the old glass boats in, I like the rest of Michaels post

FransBoom

'classic division'

Post by FransBoom » Fri Oct 20, 2006 7:20 pm

Apart from the question: “what is a classic?â€

Mickey Lake
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Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:18 am
Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

Great ideas, Frans.

Post by Mickey Lake » Fri Oct 20, 2006 10:54 pm

Thank you for your input. We need as much input from as many sailors as we can get.

We are going to have a 'classic' trophy for the North American Midwinters. After a lot of thought I have decided to use the British Dragon Model of wooden boats built prior to 1972. Personally I think that it's a good idea to include our 1970's glassfibre Dragons in the classics division, but you have to start somewhere and this is where I decided to start.

I hope that someday soon the class will take action on the definition of a classic Dragon that we can all use. Then again, if we find that that definition is too confining and does not encourage the owners of our older boats to come out and participate then I would hope that the local entities would be flexible enough to adapt those rules to help their local boats get sailing.

One thing is certain, there are very many older Dragons that do not race. Here in North America we do not only want them to race, we NEED them to race, and whatever we have to do to help them get out on the course is the right thing to do. Input like yours, Frans, is one of the biggest things that we need to find out what it will take to get everyone racing. Thank you once again.

Mickey Lake USA149
A disciple of the Norse God of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker.

trw999
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Joined: Wed Aug 09, 2006 2:10 pm
Location: England

Post by trw999 » Sat Oct 21, 2006 11:40 am

Mickey

I agree we need lots of opinions on here, not only on this subject, but the many others too.

I think Frans makes some worthwhile points. I have an additional suggestion for you, though Mickey. You say you want as many Dragons as possible to race in North America - sorry, you need them! Why not also attract those owners who love their boats and cruise them. You could have a rally or cruise in company as part of your racing regatta.

In this way, you may attract quite a few more boats as well as like minded folk. Some of them may even be attracted to race in the future.

T

Mickey Lake
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:18 am
Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

A friend from Nova Scotia has suggested just that very....

Post by Mickey Lake » Sat Oct 21, 2006 10:06 pm

thing. Instead of hosting a true regatta with all that that connotes, his suggestion is to have the Dragons come and participate in one of the largest wooden boat shows in North America. Perhaps do a little point-to-point racing. Put the fun first.

As I have said over and over again, any and every idea that helps people feel comfortable bringing their boats out I am in favor of.

This forum is a great thing. I wish more people would use it as the tool it can be, but I do want to say 'thank you' to the IDA and Jill for putting up with us.

Mickey Lake USA149
A disciple of the Norse God of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker.

FransBoom

Get dragons to race

Post by FransBoom » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:06 pm

Have been thinking about getting more dragons to race.
We have a dragon and we are not racing so I started thinking what would help me to get out on the track.

So here are some ideas:

Help with transport of the boat.
Important is a good trailer and tow vehicle but practical help is sometimes also welcome. An experienced crew can probably launch a dragon in hour, we take at least three to four hours before the boat is launched and ready to sail.
Should we decide to go to Marstrand, to nearest place with a dragon fleet, this will take us a more than a day to get there and the same time to get back.

Sails
Most boats that do not race probably do not have a set of competitive sails. I believe it wood be a great help if such a boat could lend or rent reasonable sails for an event.
In fact we would be pleased with a 1 or 2 years old genoa.
Professional teams could sponsor their national authorities with their obsolete sails for this purpose.
I think you need to break the circle of “I don’t by a set of new sails because I don’t race anywayâ€

Michael Reinert
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:40 pm

classic dragon

Post by Michael Reinert » Sun Oct 22, 2006 9:31 pm

It is very nice to read in Frans Boom’s first post on this page, that there are some others, who are sailing a dragon not only as a racing machine. I couldn’t agree more to your description of the enthousiastic group of dragon sailors (paragraph 4 of your post) and your feelings sailing in a crowded starting line, Frans. We fit exactly in your group, and most of the dragon sailors I know, mostly classic wooden boats, but also glassfibre boats, do fit in this group too.

The only thing in your post which seems to be problematic, is the handicap system you are describing. In bavaria they do already race that way (e.g. at the “Holzdrachenregattaâ€

Michael Reinert
Posts: 11
Joined: Thu Aug 03, 2006 10:40 pm

Post by Michael Reinert » Sun Oct 22, 2006 10:42 pm

I just read Frans´s newest post ( Oct. 22.), therefore some additions.

Your proposals concerning the sails, the transport and the help while launching the boat are very good !!!

We also bought our boat in 2000 and after the restauration we were happy to find some dragon-experienced friends who helped us in the beginning, now we have the ability to help others. In our home area (lake of constance/Germany) the dragon class was dead, although a lot of dragons are sailing there. But the encouragement of some enthousiasts helped to bring the scene up again. This was also successful, because the organizers of the regattas are giving the participants the feeling, that this races (club-level, with a very mixed level of racing experience, beginners up to semi-professionals) are not taken so fierce as the major events. And they offer generous help with launching, transportation and even with sails if it is needed.

The result is, that we have 2-3 boats more in the racing fleet every year.

FransBoom

classic dragons or just older dragons

Post by FransBoom » Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

We seem to have got away from the original subject: What is a classic dragon?

I think there is a difference between a classic dragon and a just an old dragon. Or to be more precisely a classic dragon sailor and an old-dragon sailor.

The classic dragon sailor chooses for his traditional wooden boat, he probably wants to keep it as original as possible and in general prefers his boat above the plastic stuff.

The old-dragon sailor on the other hand probably sails an old boat for economical reasons. He would not hesitate to trade in his dragon for a new if he got the possibility.

I think that what Mickey is looking for is a way to get the old-dragons out racing again and therefore I really believe that a classic trophy is not the best way.
What we really need is an entry and low-budget level making it easy and fun to start dragon sailing and racing on a less demanding and expensive level.
The point system I proposed was not intended as a handicap system but as a way to determinate which boats are allowed, if they choose to do so, to compete on this lower level.

I believe that one of the larger problems in the class is that the high budget teams dominate it. In Holland I used to go to the National class organisation meetings in spite of the fact that most of the items discussed there really only concerned the top teams.
There was little interest for the problems and questions of the teams with a more modest budget. Many dragon sailors I talked with avoided for this reason the national meetings.
We did not had the opportunity to talk with many Swedish dragon sailors yet but the single dragon sailor we mat so far told us that the situation here is not much different.
To illustrate this: the secretary of the Dutch dragon class organisation commented on my post on the lifting slings: Since 2001 we use a hole in the cabin roof to put the sling trough, but maybe it is an idea for the older boats.
In other words boats prior to 2001 are already considered older boats.

Maybe it is time to start a new discussion in this forum:
Low budget dragon sailing

Mickey Lake
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed Aug 02, 2006 11:18 am
Location: Spanish Fort, Alabama, USA

Just keep posting!

Post by Mickey Lake » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:05 am

Frans, the Dragon class is an interesting group of individuals. For a couple of years now on this and the old forum a very few of us have discussed the costs of purchasing, maintaining, and campaigning a Dragon. There are many sailors who would agree with you (myself, for instance) that the class does not do enough to motivate the owners at the fleet level. Robert Alpe's wonderful series on 'class layers' is a way to try and address this, and even though there have been no updates in awhile I am sure that all of the points that have been made by those threads will not go unread by the governing body of the class.

The bottom line is that even though the class could and probably should do more to help our fleets, it is rare in any one-design class that the national or international level associations do much beyond put out schedules and the like. If we are going to get people out then it will be guys like yourself and Michael in Germany, and a few of us here in North America who will make the phone calls and e-mails, talk to people, cajole, beg, whatever, to get them out onto the water.

Every single fleet needs someone who is more interested in the good of the whole than he or she is in how they finished that particular race or regatta. You have to have someone (and hopefully more than one!) who is willing to go beyond the call, as it were, to make sailing not just a challenge, but an enjoyable occasion for the fleet as a whole.

The most horrible answer I have heard when asking about expenses in this class is the old 'sailboat racing is not an inexpensive hobby and is not for everyone'. Oh, I really dislike hearing that. It CAN be for everyone who really wants to participate. Form a network with a masterlist of used hulls for sale, not just 50K euro hulls, but boats in the 10-12K euro price range. Do as we have done here in North America and create a list of people who want to buy a used Dragon and put the one together with the other. Advertise! Not only does this attract new people, but it seems to invigorate members who have not sailed in awhile. Seeing the class in our magazines and web sites concerning sailing makes people step up and notice that the class is still active and out there. Making contacts as easy as is possible is also a big help. Letting people know where to turn for help. Use some of the sponsorship monies that this class is famous for to help fleets and members who otherwise could not compete at the international level. Instead of another ice sculpture or champagne fountain, how about dropping entry fees a wee bit?

There are lots of ideas out there and lots of directions in which this class can go to grow across the world. This is already one of the very finest one design classes in the world. With a little planning it could be the finest in every sailing center worldwide. But it all has to start at the beginning, and the beginning in our case is the fleet level sailors and boats. Kill the roots of the tree and the rest of it won't last long. Build the fleets!

Mickey Lake USA149
A disciple of the Norse God of aesthetically pleasing boats, Johan Anker.

Ziggy
Posts: 1
Joined: Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:38 am

Post by Ziggy » Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:54 am

Why not follow what the 5.5 metre class has done: Classic, Evolution and Modern?

Classic is pre 1970, with no changes made to hull except to restore her to orginal condition.

There are also exception rules for boats who may have illegal modifications prior to the implementation of the rules.

The classics also have their own "Classic Cup".

The rules for all classes is here:

http://www.5.5class.org/technique/55_ra ... les_06.pdf

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